For most of us, it’s just rote — saying the Pledge of Allegiance at a meeting, gathering or other event.
Like Asheville City Council meetings, for example. If you haven’t noticed — and let’s be honest, a lot of us don’t pay attention to this — council starts each meeting with the pledge. And two members, Kim Roney and Sheneika Smith, decline to say it.
Honestly, I hadn’t really noticed it until the Biltmore Beacon newspaper’s editor, Joe Maxwell, wrote about it in the Feb. 28 edition. The group First Tuesday Conservatives first brought it up about Kim Roney in late 2022, Maxwell wrote, noting that Smith also stopped saying the pledge.
While I’m telling the truth, I have to admit that I slightly flubbed the pledge last week before a Kiwanis Club meeting I was speaking at. Forgot the “indivisible” part and felt like a bit of a doofus.
As a reminder, the full pledge is: “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
I still say the pledge, mainly because I do still believe we have a great country that offers its citizens way more opportunity than most other nations, despite our arguments, petty politics, racial strife and other woes. It ain’t perfect, but it’s better than most.
I reached out to both Smith and Roney. Smith said she can’t remember a specific time she stopped saying the pledge.
“Nor is there a specific reason I’m not pledging,” Smith said. “I just decided it was really routinized from my youth to do it without thought. And in my adulthood, I’m pretty much like, ‘Why am I doing the pledge, and why do I pledge allegiance to a man construct?’ ”
Smith clarified that she did not mean “man” as in the gender but rather mankind in the broader sense.
“I don’t think I can fully pledge or take a vow to anything that can be manipulated by man, so I just decided, ‘Hey, I’m gonna pull back from this, because I don’t really know that there is a heart-centered purpose for me to do it,’ ” Smith said.
Smith said she chooses her words carefully, in part because pieces like this column “can draw negative reactions,” as she put it. But she just got to a point where she did not feel comfortable with the pledge, especially the word “allegiance.”
Written by a socialist minister
It is a word loaded with levels of meaning. Merriam-Webster offers several definitions of allegiance:
- The obligation of a feudal vassal to his liege lord
- The fidelity owed by a subject or citizen to a sovereign or government. (Example): I pledge allegiance to my country.
- The obligation of an alien to the government under which the alien resides
- Devotion or loyalty to a person, group, or cause. (Example): allegiance to a political party
And let’s keep in mind that the pledge does not go back to America’s founding documents. Ushistory.org states: “The Pledge of Allegiance was written in August 1892 by the socialist minister Francis Bellamy (1855-1931). It was originally published in The Youth’s Companion on September 8, 1892. Bellamy had hoped that the pledge would be used by citizens in any country.”
Originally, the pledge read: “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” In 1923, the words, “the Flag of the United States of America” were added, the website notes.
It changed again in 1954, at the height of the Cold War amid worries about godless communism spreading around the globe.
“In 1954, in response to the Communist threat of the times, President Eisenhower encouraged Congress to add the words ‘under God,’ creating the 31-word pledge we say today,” ushistory.org states. Interesting side note — Bellamy’s daughter objected to the change.
A hopeful prayer instead
Honestly, I find the “God” part problematic, too, because whose god are we talking about? And what about agnostic or atheist citizens? Or Hindus, who have multiple gods?
The article also cites the Flag Code of the United States, which says the pledge “should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart.”
I’ll note that declining to say the pledge is not a violation of the city’s charter.
“There’s nothing in the City’s Charter regarding this,” City Attorney Brad Branham told me via email. He said it was likely added in a council resolution long ago that meetings would start with the pledge.
Smith does stand and face the flag during the pledge, out of respect for those who do say it, she said. But she does not put her hand over heart or say the words.
During the pledge, Roney stands with her hands behind her back looking ahead. She wears a mask during meetings, but does not say the pledge.
The Biltmore Beacon noted that in October 2022, “Jim Fulton of First Tuesday Conservatives voiced concerns over Asheville City Council Member Kim Roney’s not saying the Pledge of Allegiance at council meetings.” The group also launched a petition for Roney to step down, according to the article.
Roney sent me an email statement about the issue. This is it in its entirety:
“Appreciating diversity of representation, acknowledging my privilege, and respecting the rights of individuals to peacefully participate in public meetings, I personally exercise the right not to pledge allegiance to the flag but instead to invest in a hopeful prayer — for wisdom, for peace, and for the ‘liberty and justice for all’ that isn’t yet realized in our United States of America. Let’s not be distracted from the important work ensuring housing, food security, health, and public safety for the people of Asheville.”
She is not wrong about Asheville having a lot of issues to deal with, but it’s not like declining to say the pledge of allegiance is a total non-issue. I’m sure folks will have some strong opinions about it.
No one size fits all
When someone sent Smith the Biltmore Beacon article, she was kind of surprised it was an issue and wondered about the motivation behind it.
“I’m careful with my words, but often, as a black woman, I felt unprotected by community and society,” Smith said. “So that’s one of the reasons why I began to just kind of pull back from associations and relationships — just how I’m affiliated with things, people and ideas.”
I asked her if she could change the wording of the pledge, would that make a difference to her.
“What I’m thinking right now is what will be most equitable, and personal, is if we, at that time of the pledge, we can just stand and acknowledge — almost a moment of silence so people can make their own pledge and their own reason why,” Smith said. “I don’t think we can find any one pledge that will satisfy all.”
A question we should all ask ourselves, Smith said, is, “Why do you pledge?”
It is a good question and made me think about it before writing the paragraph above explaining why I say the pledge.
Of course, Smith and Roney are not the first people to decline to say the pledge. Some don’t say it because of the “god” reference, while others feel it’s a strange kind of governmental indoctrination, especially of kids. Some people feel we still don’t have liberty and justice for all in this country.
We probably have as many reasons for not saying it as we do people who decline to do it. We are a country based on “rugged individualism,” after all.
On the political front, Western Carolina University political scientist Chris Cooper told me he seriously doubts that Roney and Smith declining to say the pledge will carry any serious ramifications.
“The things that hurt candidates and politicians are things that challenge the narrative, right?” Cooper said. “So a preacher gets caught having an affair, or somebody who fights against election fraud is registered at a trailer in Scaly Mountain, for example — if that would ever happen. That’s what hurts candidates.”
I’m pretty sure that last bit was a reference to our infamous former Congressman Mark Meadows, who was also President Trump’s chief of staff. But let’s keep moving.
Cooper pointed out that Asheville is a liberal city where this pledge issue likely won’t be a big deal for most voters. It’s worth noting that Roney came in first in last week’s City Council primary.
So in short, it’s not a huge surprise.
“These are two politicians who present themselves and act as if they are on the left side of the political spectrum, and that’s what got them into office,” Cooper said. “I see it generating some headlines that Fox News will enjoy picking up on and making hay off of. But as far as consequences for them, I think this is part of the brand.”
I suspect he’s right. But I’d also be curious to see what you good readers think, so let me know in the comments.
Asheville Watchdog is a nonprofit news team producing stories that matter to Asheville and Buncombe County. John Boyle has been covering Asheville and surrounding communities since the 20th century. You can reach him at (828) 337-0941, or via email at jboyle@avlwatchdog.org. The Watchdog’s reporting is made possible by donations from the community. To show your support for this vital public service please visit avlwatchdog.org/donate.
I don’t do the pledge, and I retain the right to kneel before the flag. I choose these actions as my rights–and I began all this because Agent Orange referred to actual patriots as ‘losers’ and ‘sons of bitches’, and because cowardly spineless politicians from both parties did not call him out immediately…which emboldened Agent Orange to desecrate the office of the presidency and then try to overthrow democracy, which he continues to try to do…I appreciate the responses from two council members who are actually thinking for themselves.
YES!! This. Thank you for writing.
Good points….I agree with you.
As a Conservative constitutionalist, I think these women have every right to not pledge allegiance to a flag. Honestly, do you think our founding fathers would have pledged allegiance to King George?
I don’t really care. I’m more concerned about Avl’s tramping down on free speech rights in public parks and city council meetings.
If an elected government official has a problem pledging allegiance to the government of the People then how can they represent those same People? Is it also OK to ignore their oath of office?
Is it past time for them to be voted out of office?
Easy. Freedom of Speech. They aren’t saying they have a problem pledging allegiance to a government of the people. Their complaints address the wording of the pledge to the flag, which can be changed, as this article describes. Plus: do we truly have liberty and justice for all in this country? Think mortgage red-lining, mass incarceration, deadly police stops for black men. Plenty of people will say we do not. I can totally understand staying silent for that phrase, at least.
I don’t see this as a free speech issue at all. Obviously everyone has the freedom to express their opinions. The problem I see is that elected government officials think it’s important for them to openly express contempt for the country whose citizens have entrusted them to govern.
Obviously we don’t live in a perfect society but the role of elected officials is to improve government. Undermining our societal norms is counterproductive.
So then you would agree that the last president, who openly expressed contempt for the country whose citizens entrusted him to govern, by his attempt to overthrow a free and fair election, in addition to encouraging an assault on our Capitol -which cost the American taxpayers 2.7 million dollars- i.e. “undermining our societal norms” …you would agree that was “counterproductive”? Or is not saying the Pledge of Allegiance worse than that?
You are right!!! These are the members who should be voted out of office. Shame on them.
My pet peeve is when people will not even stand for the National Anthem or pledge of allegiance. I find it disrespectful personally. I was at a tourist’s game once when the P.A. system failed just as the singer was starting to sing the Anthem and the crowd started singing it together without missing a beat, I tell you, it brought tears to my eyes to see that.
Thanks for your comment!
Challenging question. I was raised and “absolute separation” Baptist. I don’t like the “under God” phrase of the Pledge, nor do I like “In God We Trust.” I like separation of religion and state. When I was sworn into the Navy, I swore and oath to the Constitution, a set a principles, not a banner or a head of state, and to always salute the flag when in uniform. The Flag does symbolize our country, and we seem to show too little affection for her these days; i.e. patriotism. I like what Commodore Stephen Decatur proposed as a toast when he returned from fighting the Barbary Pirates, “Our country. In her intercourse with other countries, may she always be right. But right or wrong, our country.” It is OUR country, and we owe her our loyalty and best efforts to make her the best country for everybody.
It’s annoying but I wouldn’t vote for Kim Roney anyway as I am not supportive of her viewpoint or many of her decisions on Council, so my dislike will not damage her political career.
I agree with you.
Confused as to how any theist can pledge allegiance to anything/anyone other than their deity.
As usual…Another woke city going down ….pathetic…haters of their own country…..
Maybe people who refuse to say the pledge, or who kneel during the anthem, are the ones who TRULY love their country. We want it to be the great country it has always claimed to be, not the playground of rich white males and fake christians.
Um no – you are wantonly disrepecting the flag, country and troops who have allowed you to have the rights and priviledges you have by being an American. Feel free to leave and don’t let the door hit you. Part of the problem w/these two is that they should be more worried about respresenting the people that voted them in, NOT putting their own beliefs in the forefront of all they do.
I’ve had students who didn’t pledge in class, as is their right, due to their religious beliefs, yet they still appreciated the country they live in. That is one of the rights and privileges of this country. Insofar as disrespect for the troops is concerned, denigrating those who served and Gold Star parents is disrespecting them, not exercising the rights one does have. By the way, I do say the pledge, but respect the rights of others to kneel, not to “say under God”, or not pledge at all. Isn’t respecting others’ beliefs rather than foisting one’s beliefs on others what this country is about?
Um, no. As a combat veteran who carried an M-16 in Vietnam, I claim my right to express loyalties freely. I love our country and am not leaving it. The two council members are expressing their loyalty by their service. If you don’t approve, vote. I also have stopped reciting the pledge – it’s a mindless, and to most who mumble it, meaningless chant. If you are loyal, work – work to secure liberty and justice for all – don’t just talk about it – in our history, liberty and justice have been aspirational. Carl Schurz gave a toast: “My counrty, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right.” As we have seen, any mug can hug the flag or recite the pledge.
Jim, Thank you for your service and thank you for your reply. It’s perfect.
The ‘orange mug’ can hug a thousand flags, but you and I know that his re-election will mean an end to democracy in America.
No can do. Pledge allegiance to a flag that dates back to a time when Black peoples Ancestors (my Ancestors) were held in captivity. Flag 1777 ish and slavery wasn’t abolished until 1865 and then came Reconstruction, etc. Also, isn’t telling people to leave this country hypocritical coming from unc sam? Just ask the Native Americans about disrespecting country and the troops during their Ancestors time in this country. Pardon me. Their country. (Think they wish they had built a wall).
YES!! THANK YOU, CLAUDIA.
Wake up.
Thank you for your excellent comment b
“I don’t think I can fully pledge or take a vow to anything that can be manipulated by man . . .”
How about the Constitution of the United States of America?
“”I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
And ‘ He who shall not be named’ made, and is still making, a veritable mockery of that pledge. His pledge was, and is, as worthless as any commitment or so-called promise he has ever made.
This is a total ‘nothing burger’ in my book. I’m a retired cop, a vet from a family of vets. We served so that everyone has the freedom to make these choices for themselves, without fear of reprisal nor retribution. Those that are making an issue of it, perhaps should first evaluate themselves.
what a non-issue. any outrage directed at someone’s refusal to publicly recite the pledge of allegiance if purely performative. it means nothing.
Two self-centered narcissists who are more interested in virtue signaling than serving the community. Two weeks in Crimea should take care of it.
That is a ridiculous assertion, and equally absurd proposal (Crimea). Go back to 7th grade social studies and review the rights guaranteed in the U.S. Constitution. For extra credit, start thinking about how to heal the divide Agent Orange has stoked and reinforced in this once great nation.
Excuse me?!?!??!?! Neither of the people who refrain from rote recitation of the Pledge said anything public about it until they were flat out asked by journalists. That hardly makes them narcissists (and isn’t calling a narcissist “self-centered” rather ridiculous?)
Despite serving for 5 years in the US Navy and then having a Federal agent career, I don’t support such overt displays. Like prayers in school, there is a certain pressure applied to everyone to participate or else be ridiculed and/or ostracized. We have the absolute right not to participate. I believe references to religion should be removed from these recited pieces much like witnesses in court are now able to affirm to tell the truth rather than swear on the Christian bible. I’ve always found it hypocritical that many conservatives have no problem supporting Trump’s January 6th attempt to derail our government while pledging loyalty to the same.
Amen.
Wholeheartedly agree!
I like the idea of a moment of silence before any important meeting, with participants silently pledging to whatever they revere in support of thoughtful group action to further the highest good for humankind.
I am a 68 y/o liberal who has always been uncomfortable when “forced,” to stand, hold my hand over my heart or sing a song that glorified bombs. I’m also strongly against having “God,” in any verse that is required as we all have our interpretation of God or whatever we choose to call him/her. As of this time, we live in America and are free to choose how and when to worship and honor. I’m wondering how the folks who so scream for their 2nd amendment would feel if we started screaming about the 1st amendment and the seperation of church and state?
This is what happens when our educational system no longer teaches our country’s true history and no longer teaches Civics courses. Patriotism is one of the main ingredients which made this country great. The current trend toward lack of it is one of the many reasons our country is in decline. Is it too late to reverse this trend? Not sure….but I hope not.
How do you define patriotism then? It seems to me that there are too many people who define patriotism by things like reciting the pledge rather than things like getting out there in the ditches to work at making our country live up to the promises that were made in by our founding fathers.
Our educational system has never taught the true history of this country.
I think that Thomas Jefferson took care of this.
“The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”
~Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia
thank you for this!
Exactly. Thanks for posting.
Spot on.
Yes!
I think it is a non-issue. Both Roney & Smith show up for meetings and actively do their jobs–that is the most important thing, imo. With all of the issues that the city is facing, whether or not the pledge is spoken by all members seems more like pandering to the conservative base than anything else.
The question you posed of “whose god” is indeed problematic for a variety of reasons, as you also noted. It’s exclusionary, at best.
Nice article John. Interestingly, during my 34 years in the military, never once do I recall “the Pledge” being recited before a meeting or ceremony. Military folks are taught from day one that their true allegiance is not to a flag, president, or ideology, but to the Constitution of the United States, which they take an oath to defend. The flag is certainly respected and cherished by U.S. military personnel but they generally don’t “pledge” allegiance to it.
Well said, sir. Similar to the puzzling practice of public officials swearing in on a Bible instead of the more appropriate Constitution.
I wonder how Ms. Smith feels about her oath of office if , “ I don’t [she doesn’t] think I can fully pledge or take a vow to anything that can be manipulated by man…”. Makes me wonder what or who her allegence might be to?
Why don’t you research and then tell us exactly what that oath is?
Myself, I’d like to thank both women for standing up to the task and representing the people of Asheville.
Troubling story.
My military experience pales in comparison to the Majors….and I ” somewhat” understand the separation of church and state….yet the flag DOZeS stand for something. Far too many people perished defending that flag that apparently others don’t hold near and dear.
It adorns the casket of most Veterans. It is solemnly folded with care, and presented to the widow at most Military funerals. It does hold meaning for most.
As has been said, freedom isn’t free., and I’d think more of these two individuals if they offered a statement that spoke to that notion.
I stopped saying the Pledge in high school in 1970, but I do stand when it is called to pledge.
I just never perceived any truth in it during the Nixon administration and the Viet Nam war.
The Pledge; I pledge allegiance to “the flag” and the republic for which it stands, one nation, “under God”, “indivisible” with “liberty and justice” “for all”.
Why to a flag?
This is a truly divided nation and it was when I was 21.
I personally am an agnostic but I do know people have many ideas of their god.
And true today as it was in the 1970s, there is no real “liberty and justice for all.”
This has been undeniably proven the last 6 years.
It should not change Roney or Smith. They have their right as Americans to stand for what they believe in.
I feel the same way about this issue as I do about someone who would stand with their hand on a bible and swear allegiance to the Constitution. If a man can swear allegiance to the constitution and then do everything in his power to break it…it means nothing.
None of this is surprising. The flag is the symbol of our nation. Ms Roney has already destroyed Asheville as the destination for tourists in western North Carolina so refusing to declare that she supports the country that gives her the right to express her opinion and act on it is embarrasing and should be to every citizen of Asheville. I spent 30 years in the Navy to preserve her right to speak her mind. The least she can do is acknowledge her support of that country and what it stands for!
Although not a Kim Roney supporter, I’d say she acknowledges her ‘support of that country’ by showing up to serve her community in the way she deems is important and that’s a truer display of love of country than reciting by rote an empty pledge to a flag and some words that one doesn’t agree hold true. Integrity is integrity whether you agree with the person’s individual stances on policy or not.
Agreed, Carol. I’ll take integrity over hollow public pronouncements any day, but especially in an era when integrity is at such a premium.
Agreed! When did some of these commenters get so soft or forget what it means to be a truly independent-thinking American? These council members are *not* desecrating the flag, pummeling cops with flag poles, calling John McCain a loser, or suggesting that anyone hang Mike Pence because he upheld the U.S. Constitution…
And we, the tax paying citizens of this country, together paid your salary for 30 years in the Navy. Glad to do it. But that doesn’t give you the right to tell a city official elected by her constituents what she can and can’t do. This subject is a molehill when compared to the mountain of anti-democratic actions taken by the former president, and the comments he continues to make encouraging attacks on NATO countries and dishonoring veterans. Turn off that TV and read some real journalism.
The flag is a (misunderstood) symbol…which was used by terrorists to pummel patriotic Americans on January 6, 2021 while a president sat gleefully viewing the mayhem and lifting not a finger to lead…Locally: if Ms. Roney has destroyed Asheville for tourists, why are there so many/plenty/an elegant sufficiency of tourists? (Also, it should be noted that Ms. Roney often votes in the minority, so one might suggest that if you disagree with Council, it’s the majority with whom you likely have your beef.) Many might even argue that most of the other council members (especially the major) have ruined Asheville for locals…
I work in public schools and haven’t said the pledge in many years for most of the reasons noted in the article and in previous comments. I am not bothered in the least by anyone’s choice to refrain from doing so.
As a 71 year old gay man who came out at age 39, I remember feeling really uncomfortable with the phrase “with Liberty and Justice for all.” In 1993, I certainly didn’t feel like I and my queer community were included in this ’promise!’
Then I began looking around and found that there were many of us who fell outside this promise of liberty and justice. Women. People of color. People living with disabilities. Poor people. People outside the predominant religious faith. Non-European descent people. The list goes on. Began to feel like liberty and justice were reserved for white, straight, Christian men.
So, no, I don’t say the pledge of allegiance (for other reasons as well) but I do work to end the injustice and oppression against all of these groups so that one day I will be able to say “with Liberty and Justice for all” and believe it’s true!
The refusal of Asheville city council leaders to recite the pledge of allegiance to the flag is deeply concerning. Such behavior exhibits a lack of patriotism and reflects a significant lapse in character that appears to resonate in the city’s crime-ridden environment. It is imperative that elected leaders set a strong example for unity and national pride, as their actions significantly impact the overall well-being of the city. The state of Asheville is a direct reflection of the lack of TRUE leaders in office. City residents are getting exactly what they are voting into office.
The refusal of the last president to accept the outcome of the election and promoting insurrection is deeply concerning. Such behavior exhibits a lack of patriotism and reflects a significant lapse in character that appears to resonate in the crime-ridden past president. It is imperative that elected leaders set a strong example for unity and national pride, as their actions significantly impact the overall well-being of our country. The state of the Republican Party is a direct reflection of the lack of TRUE leaders in office. Unfortunately we are all getting exactly what they are voting into office.
Well said.
I, too, no longer say the pledge of allegiance, primarily because the addition of the words “under God” I find inappropriate. The separation of church and state is a principle our country was founded on, and the heinous movement to push religion in our political system is horrendous.
The Economist magazine recently stated that there are 165 million people wanting to come to the US (all those desperately trying to cross our southern boarder bear testimony to this). In addition to demonstrating a knowledge of our Constitution, the swearing in of a new citizen requires an oath of allegiance to the Constitution.
It is curious to me that existing citizens shouldn’t continue feeling the same way.
https://www.findlaw.com/immigration/citizenship/naturalization-requirements.html#:~:text=Been%20physically%20present%20in%20the,Demonstrate%20good%20moral%20character
My guess is that neither Smith nor Roney could pass a simple quiz asking them to enumerate the Bill of Rights (ie the first 10 Amendments to our Constitution) without looking them up, let alone demonstrating any in-depth knowledge of our constitution. To me the Pledge of Allegiance is nothing more than an affirmation of loyalty to the country that gave us and continues to guarantee us the freedom we all enjoy, something required of every new citizen desiring to be sworn in. I personally am grateful for every opportunity to reaffirm my support of this great country.
As a military veteran I proudly join with others on patriotric occasions in pledging allegiance to the flag. However I feel no need to prove my loyalty by reciting a pledge and understand why others may choose to use such occasions to peacefully point out our failures to live up to our ideals. Insisting that others express their commitment to freedom and democracy in the same way as I do is akin to requiring them to live by my understanding of religion. Both are dangerous to a free society.
I am pleased to see the explanations given by Councilwomen Roney and Smith. I have concerns about the pledge, also. First, in 6th grade I greeted a new school year with new word added to the pledge “in God.” Raised in a very Christian Methodist household and a believer at the time I have never been comfortable with the addition “under God.” As an aspirational statement I have no problem with the rest of The Pledge. For myself only my choice has been to stand with hand over heart, saying the words with the omission of “under God” and “for all.”
A lot of good comments here about whether the pledge is just performative or perfunctory, etc. My initial reaction was that such refusals to say the pledge are about being cool, getting attention, and representing this base of voters. My own personal feeling about it is, our country isn’t perfect, but it’s a lot better than most, and it is OUR country, so why not be for it (and be constructive, try to make things better, appreciate what is good about it)?
And as someone commented previously, these two politicians are showing up and trying to do what they think is right.
However, as someone previously commented, it does seem ironic that they don’t seem to see the value in our country and yet our country affords them the right to say they don’t see its value. (Reminds me of the scene in “Life of Brian” when discussing their disgust with the Romans…”OK, Apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system, and public health … what have the Romans ever done for us?”)
I think the bottom line is it is easier to be negative, always point out what’s wrong —it’s cool nowadays to be critical of things.
And in politics, whether it’s the far left or the far right, it sometimes feels like the folks who are most outraged, most unhappy, most angry, most radical are the ones who get the attention/votes, so demonstrating disgust by not pledging may be something that works well for some council members and represents the views of their constituency.
In 1943, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled (West Virginia v. Barnette): “A compulsory flag pledge goes against the fundamental values of the First Amendment, which protects freedom of expression and thought from government intrusion in all but the most extreme cases.” (National Constitution Center)
The pledge, like religious faith, is not a test for public office or patriotism.
Thank you!
This, all day. Sometimes I say the Pledge, sometimes I don’t. These days, I always omit “under God,” because I don’t believe a civil society should be donning the mantle of any religious sentiment. I have also on occasion taken a knee for the national anthem.
To me, these are all expressions of true patriotism. I love the foundational values of liberty for all and equality under the law—I wish they were more fully expressed in our shared political life.
There is no freedom of speech without difference and dissent, expressed openly without fear of governmental retribution. We should all expect to be judged in the court of public opinion for what we say and how we say it, but our government should be neither compelling nor sanctioning our expressive behavior.
City council members they make $16,000 a year…..seems that they reap the benefits of the tax payers and the freedoms that we have as a country. But hey, they are setting an example of exactly the cesspool this City is turning into.
Buncombe County ( which includes Asheville for those not aware) was awarded $900,000 in Covid money…they proudly stated they “assisted 206 households”…..206 out of 38,000, yet they had over 400,00 left over when the grant period ended. Guess that will pay for the 400k public bathroom …ya know it is more important than families.
Buncombe county has received 4.65 million in grant money from a private foundation to reduce inmate population. Hence the revolving door and increase in crime.
I realize that these two examples say Buncombe County, but again, these are part and parcel to Asheville.
The city council only cares about being “politically correct”…money from tourism and being seen at protest.
So, as I said….no surprise because they are living the great life under the flag that has been fought for and blood shed for to keep us free. No thanks, no respect needed.
Well said, at $16,000 a year, the entire city council is overpaid!
I don’t find fault with anyone who prefers to keep their expressions of love of country to themselves. Agent Orange was co-opted the American flag and all old fashioned notions of patriotism and loyalty to his “brand.” (I’m a vet who stands for the national anthem at Tourists home games. 😉)
Saying the Pledge of Allegiance does not make one a patriot any more than putting a flag decal on your car, wearing a lapel pin, or singing the national anthem at sporting events does. Saying it is akin to public display of prayer. Nothing should be construed by someone not saying, or singing, or praying in public. Too many politicians and people use these symbols as brand marketing. As the saying goes, “may your life preach more loudly than your lips.”
When I’m asked to recite the pledge, I omit the words “under God”, not to demonstrate disbelief but because I object that it was unconstitutional and unfair to include them. No government has the right to make anyone profess a belief–or disbelief, for that matter–in a deity.
Remember that there’s a lot of performative pledging by individuals who won’t lift a finger to defend the U.S. Constitution or our nation against terrorists, domestic or foreign. Don’t believe me? I’ll be happy to share some footage from January 6, 2021.
These comments are really sad. Our country doesn’t stand a chance.
Our country doesn’t stand a chance when people think pledges mean more than actually following through on the pledges…in our own state, Dan Bishop is running for Attorney General despite signing onto the Amicus Brief to overturn the 2020 election even though he knew damn well that he was supporting the Big Lie. Chuck Edwards also supports the Big Lie and the Big Liar. I ask this: would you want to pledge allegiance if, say, Trump got reelected and joined forces with Putin?
Hiram:
And our country is just wonderful with the guy that currently occupies the WH!
Geez… sad, sad stuff!
I was, at first, surprised and negatively impacted by the headline of this article. However once I read their carefully thought out reasons I now see it differently. Face it, “change is the constant” in this world. Not all change is for the better. Instead of reciting words by rote, it would behoove all of us to think about what they mean and if they are still relevant. By choosing not to recite the pledge, Smith and Roney are shining a light on some of those issues. The constructive thing to do is for each of us personally to decide if there is any truth to some of those issues. If so, we should take steps to address and correct those things (which is what they are doing by serving on the city council), and therefore continue to make our country the place the framers of the constitution intended, and the world a better place in which to live.
I no longer pledge to the flag and I believe that everyone has the freedom to decide this regardless of their position, gov’t or non-gov’t. As for your opinion here, “I still say the pledge, mainly because I do still believe we have a great country that offers its citizens way more opportunity than most other nations, despite our arguments, petty politics, racial strife and other woes. It ain’t perfect, but it’s better than most.” You are, of course, entitled to your opinion as a middle-to-upper-middle-class white male, but I respectfully suggest that you talk to a member of the USA’s BIPOC community to see if they share your opinion, or talk to the people of Vietnam or Afghanistan or Iraq…you get the idea. Or me—I worked in the White House and in the Capitol Bldg for awhile back in the day. If you ever have 6+ hours to spend chatting, let’s do it. Warning: You will likely not have this same opinion when we’re finished.
Much ado about very little. I neither say the pledge nor participate in the national anthem. Haven’t for decades. That said I hardly ever attend events where either of these rituals are performed.
I’ve stopped saying the Pledge, because Republicans continue to make this a country where there is no longer “one nation” that is “indivisible”. Nor are there “liberty and justice for all”. Was it Just for Mitch McConnell to deny Barack Obama’s Supreme Court nomination even come up for a vote, and then proceed to rush through the Republican nominations? Was it Just for all those who want better protection and processes at the border to be over-ruled by Trump saying “Don’t fix that, I need it as a campagin issue”?
I love this country and am blessed by being born in this country. I see women in some countries treated like they are nothing. They are not allowed to go to school, drive a car, not leave home without a male of her family, and wear clothes that you can only see their eyes. Some countries you are to not ever question their supreme leader or be put to death. So it brings to my thinking that yes our country has some terrible leaders we have voted in because most people don’t read anything about this person they are voting for. Some put homosexual to death. So I think our country isn’t perfect but it still the best one in the world and everyone should respect the flag so many have died for and some have come home with missing limbs, brain damage & other problems so we can have the freedom to disrespect our flag and our country.
People do stuff like this just to garner attention, clicks, whatever. They do not care about anyone’s rights, except their own and then is “whine time.”
Look how many inches of copy and responses have been wasted by not respecting one’s country?
Our flag is a symbolic recognition of our Country and our people. The pledge simply recognizes that we, collectively, support America’s ideals. If that bothers you, you shouldn’t inject yourself into managing policy decisions for a Nation you can’t fully support. These ladies just lost my vote.
I am so sorry that Chris Cooper views saying the pledge as some sort of right wing stance. His personal political bias is showing big time. This is how the Democrats are loosing the moderates.
When adult council members make NOT saying the pledge about them, they appear to be narcissists playing to their audience.
Saying the pledge & facing the American Flag is the least you can do for the city staff (some of which are veterans and have served in the military.) They have served our country to keep us free & safe. But I suspect that Smith & Roney will love all the attention they are getting from the press. They must rather enjoy putting their ego above the feelings of our soldiers and veterans. Sad.
It is the far left that puts down rugged individualism. Notice how they use individualism when it suits them?
Well, sure, if only agent orange and his supporters didn’t believe that military personnel were suckers and losers.
I’ve voiced concerns regarding Asheville City Council members Kim Roney and Shenika Smith’s decision not to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Their actions, while legally within their rights, prompt significant reflection on what such gestures imply about their views on America’s foundational principles.
Their stance appears as a deliberate move towards advocating for radical changes under the guise of progressiveness. It’s essential to recognize that elected officials carry the responsibility of representing all constituents, not just those who align with a specific ideology.
In Buncombe County, our strength lies in diversity and the ability to discuss differing opinions openly. The actions of Roney and Smith have catalyzed a necessary debate on the role of national symbols and the messages we, as a community and a nation, choose to endorse through our public representatives.
Moving forward, the focus should be on constructive engagement that addresses the wide spectrum of views within our community while upholding the values that underpin our society. This is not about bending to any political extreme but about ensuring our discourse reflects the principles of democracy and respect for all voices, including those we fundamentally disagree with.
If only the candidates you support didn’t mock (and attempt to overthrow) democracy…
If you think the Pledge (last edited in 1954) is somehow related to this contry’s ‘foundational principals’ you need to educate yourself about both the Pledge and this country’s foundation.
How is the Pledge of Allegiance a “foundational principle?” Deciding not to say the Pledge is a choice that is protected under our Constitution. It’s a nice sentiment but hardly qualifies as a litmus test for judging the value of those in public service. And if elected officials should represent all constituents, why is it OK for people such as Chuck Edwards and others to continue promoting the right wing lies about elections being stolen?
Less important than the fact they have brought great harm to Asheville by their lack of intelligence and partisan politics above common sense .
…and not nearly as much as what the last president has done to our country due to his lack of intelligence, his partisan politics above common sense and his attempt to overthrow our democracy…?
As exemplified by you.
I guess it’s their right, this is America. For some the flag means nothing. One Nation under God. For some there is no God. Freedom and justice for all. Just words. Yes, for some the flag means nothing, till some parent, wife, husband, gets a folded one. And for what Liberty, Freedom. For some nonsense, It has no meaning. What’s on the table today, first who’s turn is it to bring donuts tomorrow.
For some, the flag is part of a weapon on the end of a flagpole used to assault the people who swore allegiance to defend our democracy, at the behest of a sore loser.
I don’t remember ever saying the Pledge when I was in the service.
I stopped saying the Pledge in 8th grade, back in 1971. There was a lot going on in the country then and I lived in a liberal university town so we were in the midst of everything. Being asked to participate in a rote recitation of the Pledge every morning in school was insulting to me when, at that time, young men who couldn’t vote ewre being sent off to fight in a war that the entire country was being lied to about. I stood quietly and respectfully, I just didn’t say the words. My homeroom teacher sent me to the dean for not not saying the Pledge! The dean asked me about it, heard me out, and tore up the complaint.
I don’t believe I have said the Pledge of Allegiance since. Asking ordinary citizens to continually pledge their allegiance to our flag and, secondarily, to the country (shouldn’t the country at least come first?) smacks of government control to me. I show my patriotism by voting consistently, having missed only a couple of very local elections in 48 years, by writing to my members of Congress, by caring for my neighbors and for this beautiful land we live on, and by working to get leaders who work at making this country the one that was conceived of in the Declaration of Independence.
Oh, and having been raised in the Episcopal church and now being a Clergy spouse, I find the “under God” phrase too exclusionary. We are all children of God and our planet is part of God’s creation. It’s not just us!
Here’s what I’m willing to say:
I pledge allegiance to the United States of America, one nation, indivisible, with the unfulfilled promise of liberty and justice for all.
Standing up for anything else seems hypocritical.
The pledge is silly and most people simply say it by rote without thought. Council members should simply pledge to support and improve our community. These two council members are willing to go against the grain, think for themselves and ask hard questions.
John sure chummed the pond with this article.
I respect someone who pauses to reflect and consider what they say or recite rather than just blindly repeat what others say.
I respect granting all the opportunity to exclude God and I respect including everyone regardless of their spiritual and religious beliefs and choices.
Thank you for prompting this discussion.
Well, TDS is always good for some laughs. Maybe some of you could take a breath and have a local beer to bring that heart rate down. In my opinion, saying the pledge is a matter of respect to the national symbol of our nation and to those who fought and died for that symbol and the freedom we all enjoy in this country. It would seem these two members of the city council may be taking that freedom for granted. Perhaps Ms. Smith and Ms. Roney would consider spending an extended period living in a third world country, where the sight of armed soldiers around town is commonplace. Nothing makes one appreciate freedom and the symbol of it more than experiencing the lack of it. On the other hand, based on the condition of Asheville under their leadership, maybe the two ladies would love the third world.
While thinking over this controversial topic for the last few days one image comes to mind- that of Joe Rosenthal’s photo of the five Marines raising the Flag on Iwo Jima. That image underscores the good and the bad about this country. I don’t think any of those Marines fared well in civilian life after the war, but those men gave their best when their country called. I don’t think it’s too much to ask our elected officials to “…pledge allegiance to the flag…and to the republic for which it stands…” The United States isn’t perfect, but we’re the best there is, and we can’t give up striving for perfection. Patriotism shouldn’t be a dirty word.
There are 100 questions that humans from other countries are asked to study before becoming American citizens. I’ve pasted two below. I believe that living in a country where members of the Republican party consistently refuse to abide by #53 gives everyone the right (and possibly the moral imperative) to abstain from #52.
52. What do we show loyalty to when we say the Pledge of Allegiance?
▪ the United States ▪ the flag
53. What is one promise you make when you become a United States citizen?
▪ give up loyalty to other countries
▪ defend the Constitution and laws of the United States ▪ obey the laws of the United States
▪ serve in the U.S. military (if needed)
▪ serve (do important work for) the nation (if needed) ▪ be loyal to the United States
*I also noticed that only ‘men’ over the age of 18 are required to register for the draft. That should be changed to include women and non-binary individuals.
It’s amazing how many of our progressive minions had to turn this into an anti-Trump rally. This has nothing to do with him.
And the question posed is a moot point in Asheville because it’s a one party town. As long as you run as a Democrat, no matter how bad you are, you will get elected. You see where that’s gotten us, an unsafe city full of homeless, vagrants, and addicts, with a police force reduced by 40% and a council who won’t pay them enough to get more officers.
Having said that, I defend their constitutional right to free speech, or to not speak if that is their wish, as that is the foundation is our country. It’s too bad these so called “social justice warriors” don’t offer that right to all.
Thank you, Chris!
I believe they’re speaking more about the hypocrisy, not specifically DJT. He’s just the only president who’s ever behaved in such an anti-American manner. Just imagine the outrage that would have erupted from Trump and his minions had the events of January 6th taken place in an alternate version of history with Obama in office and refusing to concede an election he’d lost.
I think that refusing to say the pledge is somewhat pessimistic. As an optimist, I continue to say the pledge as an aspiration to get to where this country needs to be. Even though we have faults, I pledge to this country to help make it better. I also pledge to this country because of my many relatives who have fought and were injured fighting for the freedom that we experience living here as opposed to many other countries. Some people who complain really aren’t trying to make this country better. They are just complaining and have a negative view.
This is not an important issue. Who cares? Why did saying the pledge even become such a big deal to say all the time? Pledging to a banner doesn’t make someone more or less patriotic. Patriotism is implicit and doesn’t require rote displays of ritual such as pledging, to anything.
As I finished my student teaching here in 1996, I asked my principal about the subject. Her opinion was that a teacher who wouldn’t lead saying the Sledge of Allegiance would not be hired. I kept my mouth shut about the religious and legal issues involved, so I could get a job.
I require my students either to be silent or to participate when it comes in over the speakers every morning, even though, like US currency and NC license plates, we are supposed to be legally protected from religion just as much as folks have the protection of religion.
If nothing else, it has brought out the black boot brigade. I could care less if they pledge or fly off the Jeff Bowen Bridge. The council’s actions make no difference to me anymore. I back the blue 100% and and will continue with those who support the constitution.
Going by the number of comments, this is clearly an issue regardless of one’s view. Which underscores the key point: we have freedom of speech and expression. Smith and Roney have the right not to say the pledge, just as the remaining council members have the right to say it. Period. We can vote for them or against them based on the pledge issue, or focus — as I would — on far more important issues of governance in Asheville.